-
Mini-DV is not Sony's Baby???
Hmmm....DVC-Pro is made by Panasonic, JVC makes Digital-S, neither are no where near as compatible as DV-CAM is to Mini-DV, which is made by Sony.
I clearly said if you were starting out today, DV is the logical choice.
So you are saying Mini-DV is an orphan format, not tied to anyone one manufacturer. I find that surprising because JVC and Panasonic don't seem real thrilled by Mini-Dv.
I guess that makes Mini-DV a true consumer format not meant to mix with the Big Three's REAL digital formats.
Panasonic = DVC-Pro, JVC = Digital S, Sony = DV-CAM.
Mini-DV = consumer.
Mini-DV is NOT the logical choice for professional archival purposes.
Mini-DV is an excellent choice if you are starting out, but Mini-DV is still suspect as an all in one choice when compared to DVC-Pro, Digital-S, DV-CAM.
Of all the formats, DV-CAM seems the most logical choice.
I personally Like Digital-S, but JVC never developed lower data rates to make it compatible with fire-wire, they ended up with a better product and no way to integrate it as cost-effectively as DV-CAM for Non-linear Editing.
------------------
Alex
-
miniDV was created by a consortium of electronic manufacturers. It was intended for consumers and the growing imergance of prosumers. From their it grew in popularity with small to medium size stations and independant filmmaker. Yes ALex, I agree with you with DV's lack of true TC is a hinderance but adding that feature (along with locked audio) would basically make DVCam and DVC Pro 25 obsolete, or at least redundant.
FYI- theorectically the current Digital S and DVCPro 50 tech specs can fit with the current version of firewire (up to 400Mb/s). The problem is remember that the three manufacturers have their SDI products. Creating digital decks backward compatible with firewire would make their very expensive SDI products pretty much useless to a $50 firewire card (an SDI option in a deck adds hundreds to thousands of dollars to the price)
Also, Sony wants to replace DVCam with BetaSx with its MPEG 2 based encoding (4:2:2). Its already being replaced in Japan. The popularity of DVCam in Europe and U.S. makes replacing it a little bit more difficult.
I agree with you also that DV50 and Digital S is a great format. I have seen what they are capable with and its a great tool, especially for documentaries, but the cost still makes it very difficult for indenpendant filmmakers.
------------------
-
Wow! I'm away on vacation for a couple of days and everything goes crazy around here! http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif
Alex is totally correct about playing oxide tapes in UVW1800's. They play fine. I knew an engineer at Sony and he admitted to me that the performance they expected when BetaSP was on paper did not happen in reality when the first units were RUSHED into production to compete with Panasonic's MII (a superior medium to SP in all respects, I think).
Anyway, the difference between the SP performance and the earlier oxide based Beta units was not as staggering as the engineers had hoped and Sony feared that SP users would not buy the new, super expensive SP stock Sony had such an investment in. Their solution? Sony changed the bias on the SP decks so that it was impossible to record an SP signal on oxide tape. He said that the change in bias did NOTHING to improve the picture quality; only to prevent people from using the cheaper tape stock. However, the SP units play oxide just fine and do not damage the heads. I do it all the time and have for years on a variety of SP decks, including my own UVW 1800.
As a side note: I know a guy that has recalibrated the bias on his UVW1800 and records SP on oxide all the time. The results look fine (I haven't put them on a scope) but I don't have the balls to let him do my machine. Also, he showed me a trick on SVHS as well and this I HAVE done in a pinch. The only difference in a VHS and SVHS shell is that the SVHS case has a small hole in the bottom that tells the maching it is, in fact, SVHS (the machine can't detect the difference in stock; only the the difference in the shell). If you use regular high grade VHS tape, you can drill a small hole in the bottom and make an SVHS deck think it's recording on SVHS and the damned thing will do it. I laughed my butt off when he showed me this and I've done it a couple of times. Works just great.
Regarding my miniDV "ping pong" experiment and my capture board: I have a Pennacle Systems Real Time capture and effects board. It has active inputs and outputs for BetaSP, seriel digital, firewire, composite and SVHS. All inputs and outputs are hot all the time. All I did for my experiment was digitize the miniDV to my system (at 6 megabytes per second) and put it on the timeline. I hit play and recorded the output back to miniDV. Then I recaptured that to the computer again, and put it on the timeline. I hit play and recorded the output to miniDV, etc, etc, etc. I did this ten times and when I put the first capture next to the last capture via split screen, there was NO difference in picture quality; visually or on my vector scope or waveform monitor.
Again, I knew if I was working in the DV codec on the timeline, then there SHOULDN'T be any degradation of the image, but my system edits in the Pennacle Real Time codec, so the DV signal has to be converted after coming in via FireWire and back again on the way out. I was concerned that this conversion would change the formula for success, but it didn't. The image was flawless.
Roger
-
Hi Roger,
We have 3 1800 here at our facility and all of them have problems with Oxides. They might or might not play it. And if they do play it, they often have tracking problems (drop outs, chroma shifts, etc.)
The facility we use to fix have also told us not to use Oxides in the deck since the material used in those tapes tend to leave more residue than normal SP tapes thus reducing the life span of those head.. My post production manager have said the same thing. I remember reading something about this in Post magazine, I might be mistaken then. Let me see if I can confirm. Hmm... If Alex and you are right I will ask our Post Production manager what he did with the decks.
Question Roger:
When you came back from those miniDv tapes how did you capture, Composite, S cable, Component, firewire...? What is the exact model of your card? Is is the Nitro? Something else?
Thanx
------------------
-
Roger, I'm wondering if your board is a fair comparision because you got a really good one.
Crimsonson, in Final Cut Pro, is the data capture the same as your board, or is it slower?
------------------
Alex
[This message has been edited by Alex (edited October 07, 2001).]
-
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crimsonson:
Hi Roger,
If Alex and you are right I will ask our Post Production manager what he did with the decks.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Rest assured, UVW1800 can play BetaSP tapes with no problem. I've done it for years and have never found one that wouldn't that was working properly. I used to have a regular Beta linear set up before getting my non-linear system and the UVW1800. Therefore, I have a LOT of standard Beta tapes and I have to access them all the time on the UVW1800. Trust me, works fine.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crimsonson:
When you came back from those miniDv tapes how did you capture, Composite, S cable, Component, firewire...? What is the exact model of your card? Is is the Nitro? Something else?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, I don't have the Nito Package; just the basic Real Time package. The Nitro Package is merely a 3D enhancement of the basic package and has nothing to do with capture. I used FireWire in and out for all my tests. I sometimes use the analog audio in if I want to sweeten the audio during capture but the picture and audio for the tests was purely firewire.
Roger
-
Hi Roger:
Yes our UVW 1800 can play Betacams but not BetaOxides. Hmmm, still in the process of checking.... I will get back you on that one.
Roger,
Regarding firewire. If you sent your signal via firewire you are actually making a digital transfer, an EXACT clone. Think of it as from harddrive to harddrive, like moving an Excel file. Changing the bit rate does not affect the resolution whatsoever since DV is fixed at 3.6 MB/5:1/4:1:1. If you came from analogue, there will be a compression done by the Pinnacle card. However, since you used firewire (if I am understanding you correctly) there should not be a difference, no matter how many generations you have done because the signal was already in DV format, the compression is not done unless FX, transtion, title, etc was added. Also, the compression should have only been done on that particular segment. This is the advantage of digital, no generation effect no matter how far from the original master.
------------------
[This message has been edited by crimsonson (edited October 08, 2001).]
-
A long time ago, I heard a rumor that BetaCam SP tape might wear out a regular BetaCam "oxide" Deck because of the metal particle tape.
Perhaps someone at your company recited that backwards.
Also, if you punch out one of the holes on the bottom of a betacam oxide tape so it matches the betacam Sp hole configuration (like the notches on a Super-8 cartridge) that may solve your problem, but only for playback mode, not record.
Also, you may have a deck that needs a "rom" upgrade.
Perhaps the betacam oxide tapes were being used as record tapes instead of just as playback tapes.
You also have to be careful with Dolby Noise Reduction issues. I believe Oxide tapes did not have Dolby Noise Reduction, but UVW-1800's
automatically use Dolby Noise Reduction circuitry on every tape you put in, there is no on and off switch for it, which can bass up an Oxide tape if it doesn't have Dolby to begin with.
The PVW's on the other hand, allow you to turn off the Dolby noise reduction circuitry via a front panel switch.
On the PVW "play-only" video decks, it actually makes sense to leave the Dolby Noise Reduction in the "off" position all the time.
The PVW will overide the external switch selection if you put in a BetaSP tape, and if you put in an oxide tape, it will already be in the correct setting, otherwise, if the external switch is left on the on position, it will bass up the sound off of your BetaCam Oxide tapes.
------------------
Alex
[This message has been edited by Alex (edited October 08, 2001).]
-
Perhaps Roger knows what the optimal data speed is for BetaCam SP when converting it to digital...
and if it is say 25 mega's per second, does that mean it has more initial information than
mini-dv, which runs at 3.6.
------------------
Alex
-
Roger:
Did the test...
Sorry I meant BetaSP not 'Betacams'
I tried to play a BetaOxide and I got the tracking problems and this is with 3 different BetaOxide tapes....Alex might be right I need a ROM upgrade or something...
Regarding the your Pinnacle board...
Yes you can drop down the bit rate lower than 3.6. You are basically making a low res conv, off lining. The Pinnacle Studio DV does the samething. However, I am almost positive that you cannot pass 3.6 unless you go analogue. I am sure since firewire connections in DV cams are fixed to output/receive only 3.6 MB, like SDI are fixed at 270Mb or less.
If you are 'capturing' in DV mode you are actually only adding 'headers' in the video/audio stream.
But I just checked the white paper for the Nitro (I assume yours is the same minus 3D DVE). And Yes you are correct. As I understand it - it is 'converted' to the propriety during recompression. Nothing is done though during straight dubs. Nonetheless, your board sounds great. Its just right now its out of my price league and I am unsure if I need all those composting/3D abilities. Would be nice though, but its a luxury for my editing needs, (I would prefer a Film framerate matching software - like Avid DV XPress offer as an additional $$$ option).
Alex:
I will check if my decks need ROM an upgrade...
regarding like FCP - its actually the most flexible editor at that price. It can do low res Quicktime to High Def. YOu just need the hardware. There are at least 3 cards I know that support high res - Aurora Igniter(D1 and HD), Voodoo D1 and Pinnacle's Cinewave (HD capable).
------------------
[This message has been edited by crimsonson (edited October 08, 2001).]
